Episode 166 - Your Work Is Invisible Because You Never Learned to Explain Its Value, with Vanessa Errecarte

Strong technical work does not automatically make you visible, memorable, or promotable. In this episode, Steve and Jake sit down with Vanessa Errecarte, author of Valuable and Visible and an instructor in digital marketing, corporate branding, and personal branding at the UC Davis Graduate School of Management. Vanessa explains how engineers can communicate their value without bragging, build trust through service, and stand out without becoming an online personality. Not theory, practical, tactical advice for making your work easier to understand, remember, and recommend.

Key Topics Covered:
• Why excellent engineers still get overlooked
• The difference between expertise, authority, visibility, and trust
• Why personal branding should serve others instead of promoting yourself
• How to communicate accomplishments without sounding arrogant
• The Truth Framework for creating clear, counterintuitive messages
• Why early-career engineers already have useful lessons to share
• How stories make technical value more relatable and memorable
• Why a focused audience beats meaningless reach and viral impressions
• How personal branding improves meetings, interviews, and leadership conversations
• How resumes and cover letters can break patterns without sacrificing credibility

Actionable Steps:
• Identify the specific person or group you want to help
• Write down what that audience commonly believes
• Define the real problem they may be missing
• Explain what you do differently and why it works
• Support your perspective with evidence, outcomes, or experience
• End every lesson with one action someone can take immediately
• Share one useful thought-leadership post each week
• Turn project experiences into stories about human impact
• Repeat your core message in different ways instead of constantly inventing new ideas
• Build visibility before you need a promotion, interview, or opportunity

Who This Episode Is For:
• Engineers whose work is strong but rarely recognized
• Early-career engineers who believe they have nothing worth sharing
• Individual contributors trying to move into leadership
• Engineers uncomfortable with networking, self-promotion, or personal branding
• Technical professionals whose resumes and interviews sound like everyone else

Why It Matters:
Your career does not grow solely from the quality of your work. People must understand the value you create, associate you with meaningful outcomes, and trust you enough to recommend you. Visibility without value is noise. Value without visibility gets ignored. Learning to communicate both is part of becoming an impactful engineer.

Where to Listen:
Spotify
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Or wherever you get your podcasts

Share:
If this episode hit home, send it to someone. The Impactful Engineer grows by word of mouth, just like the best careers do.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Welcome to the Impactful Engineer Project. I'm Steve Maxby, and with my co-host and brother Jake, we are here to bring you guidance, fresh ideas, and the tools to help you become an impactful engineer.

SPEAKER_02 0:22

Engineers don't fail because they lack technical skill. They fail because they never learn how to lead, communicate, and take ownership. This is the Impactful Engineer. We give you the blueprint for career excellence, not textbook answers. I'm Steve Maxie, a senior manager in product development, and I'm here with my brother Jake, an owner and principal engineer at NLS Engineering. You're done with the status quo and ready to take control of your career, then you're listening to the right show. Hello, Jacob.

SPEAKER_03 0:46

What's going on? I love our intro. We take ownership. That's it. Just do that stuff. That's all you gotta do. I guess I'll cover episode types. This is a guest episode today, and it's gonna be awesome. But usually Steve and I will come on here, we'll present a topic, we'll talk about it, the important parts of it, try to frame it so that you can use it in your day-to-day and in your career as an engineer. Uh specifically and particularly early on. We like to hit that kind of zero to five year range. Um we've, you know, we've been there, we've done that. Um so we like to be helpful in that way. Sometimes just one of us will get on, uh, kind of do the same thing, but we have a topic that we're really fired up about and that we really want to send the message and just get our point across. And so those are usually a little shorter, um, and just one of us are on. And our third episode type is like today, where we have a guest on that has their own valuable experience and expertise to share with you, uh, so that you can have a little bit more of a different perspective than just Steve and I on here rambling. So that is the that's the show. Three episode types in the show.

SPEAKER_02 1:57

Heck yeah. All right, and today our guest teaches digital marketing, corporate branding, and personal branding at the UC Davis Graduate School of Management. This is gonna be fun. Um, she is also the author of Valuable Invisible, a book uh around service first personal branding, which uses real stories of people who have grown their own success by learning how to communicate what makes their perspective valuable. Her message is especially relevant for engineers. Um being technically strong is important, but doing great work does not automatically make you visible, memorable, or understood. So, with that, I would like to uh welcome Vanessa Eric Hardy to the show. Did I did I say that right?

SPEAKER_04 2:40

You did. I'm actually very, very impressed because I actually have told my husband several times that this is not an intuitive way to say the name, and Ellis Island must have done something wrong.

SPEAKER_03 2:51

We'll blame them.

SPEAKER_04 2:53

Yep. How are you guys? It's great to great to chat again.

SPEAKER_02 2:59

Yeah, yeah. We had uh such an awesome uh intro call um quite a couple months ago, actually. Um but we had a lot going on, so we had to schedule pretty far out. But uh I'm I'm super excited to to dive into not only your book, but just uh like what you do and and a lot of the experiences that you can uh share with our audience. Um so with that, uh, can you give us just a quick little elevator pitch of uh you know who you are, where you came from, and and how you got to where you are today?

SPEAKER_04 3:24

Yeah, so I um have worked in marketing my entire career. I feel lucky that I've known what I wanted to do. Um, but I see it, I've always seen it a little differently. I I want to bring back the good part of marketing, if you will. You know, people use words like spin and whatnot. And I've always thought that it was, I always said when I was um growing up that I want to be a teacher or um in like I didn't know the word yet, but some kind of like, you know, PR, marketing, something like that. I liked, you know, getting the word out, right? And as I got older and older, I realized that, you know, there are ways to show value on a on a bigger stage. And that's why I love marketing because I do think it's one of the most misunderstood professions sometimes. Because when you do it well, you're really inviting people into um figuring out something that either they didn't know they needed or that they knew they needed, but didn't know quite how to solve it. It's it really is kind of that teaching people how something adds value, and we can do it with the human or the person. So basically, you know, I've spent my career doing um a couple different types of marketing. I'm in Davis, which is right by Sacramento, which is the state capital of one of the biggest economies in the world. So I started my career actually in political marketing. Marketing humans, that is hard. Humans are not like products, they change their mind and they say things we might not expect, right? Um, and so I started my career there. Then I went, you know, more general into you know corporate marketing as well, really enjoyed that, and I started my own firm about 10 years ago. Then uh the business school said, Would you teach corporate branding and digital marketing here at UC Davis? And and I said, Well, that's kind of cool because I said I wanted to be in marketing or teaching, and now I get both. Um, and I had done corporate training before that, but teaching MBA students, um, it was really cool because you know they're not it, it's like it's they're looking for that next big holistic thing versus the next step to figure out what they need professional development right wise, right? So it's been wonderful. But one thing I started noticing is exactly what you both talk about. As I told you a couple months ago, you've been my my workout buddy here and there for a while, listening, listening to your message. And I think it's so awesome. I mean, you know, Kelsey brothers, they're great and everything, but we I'm glad you guys are all tuned in to these brothers because they say some cool stuff and they're funny. Um so uh um, but it's it's what you say, right? So I started noticing that if you make it to the UC Davis Graduate School Management, you're excellent. I mean, it's one of the top, you know, business tier business schools, right? And yet, so many people get overlooked and struggle to find that thing that they're investing, such a big commitment to in their lives, time, money, you know, away from family, all that. Um, and these people are brilliant. Your audience, you're full of these people that are brilliant, but you know, finding a way to express that value in a way that people pay attention was a struggle. Yet in corporate branding, we do it all the time. But when we put personal in front of branding, we completely change how we do marketing. And so, um, and and it's because we see influencers, right? And we try to do marketing how they do it, but they show up every day and it's a full-time job, right? So, you know, how do you become memorable without as much work? How do you create that sticky message, that message that people want to repeat and refer? Then all of a sudden you're doing it in a way that is more business-like versus, you know, here I am, this personal brand, I want to get rich quick advising you on skincare. That's gonna burn your skin off anyway, you know.

SPEAKER_03 7:14

I had so many thoughts while you were talking about like, well, first, like, do you still have students come in or people you're teaching running through your programs that are like they still object to like, oh, this is slimy, or or I don't feel good doing social media marketing, or I don't feel good promoting, or they still have that kind of yes, so do I so do I.

SPEAKER_04 7:34

Like when you told me, like, take a little while and tell me about you. I'm like, oh god. I mean, it's it's such an uncomfortable feeling. And then, you know, we we do it in person a lot. We have to, obviously, right? Then you add the internet to it, and we're on the internet over eight hours a day between like texting and um emailing and social media and all of that, and you know, it's like it feels like almost this bigger stage, right? But we know it's important because we're on it so much, right? We go we eat and go to the bathroom and sleep. And so then you add those eight hours, and it's like, wow, we're online more than we are in person. So we have to find a way to translate it, but it does. It feels wildly uncomfortable. And I think that actually the more skill you have and the more things you try to know, the harder it gets. You know, like do you ever look at your kids and say, like, you're lucky you just don't know what you don't know yet? Because like sometimes the confidence around what they do know is incredible, right? And then we start learning more, and it's just like, now I know nothing. There is so much more and left to learn. And now that I've learned how much there is to learn and learned a little bit of what I need to learn, you know, um, the imposter syndrome hits, right? And and I don't know that it ever totally goes away, especially in moments where it's like, now I have to find a way to communicate online, which is also a new thing to our generation.

SPEAKER_03 8:55

And yeah, I'm curious, you know, your thoughts on this, but it's like, what messaging do you use to overcome that initial, you know, opposition to being online or or doing the personal branding with a purpose and actually spending time doing it? It's like for me, it's a necessary part of life, is how I framed it. Like it people have been have been branding and uh forever, and corporations have been, you know, this isn't an internet thing. This is a forever thing since businesses started needing to be uh visible with their value, you know. So like um to me, I've gotten to the point where it's uh yeah, this is a necessary thing. I don't feel weird about it. This this is the process, this is just about as much about we used to write a perfect ad for the yellow pages as just about as much now that we need to show up on a podcast for our business. Uh to me, but like what is your messaging? How do you get people to just accept that or help them, I guess?

SPEAKER_04 9:55

Yeah, well, I I first start by saying that I think that I I just mentioned influencers, and actually, you know, I make a skincare joke because my daughter's way into the skincare influencers and it's a part-time job reading all those ingredients she wants. But there's nothing wrong with an influencer, but we have to view it just like engineering is an industry because influencers they're making generalist content that's either funny or how-to or whatever it is for daily life, which is not differentiated. So now you're competing with all these other influencers, and you have to spend hours a day making those videos that are designed to go viral, and there's specific steps you can do to do that, right? Um, and you do it over and over and over again. And when you leave the feed, you're forgotten, and that's why you have to do it over and over again so that you get money for posts and continue your career. So when we go to personal branding, personal branding, in my view, is meant to help you get where you want to go in your whatever career it is. And so the thing that we say when we talk about branding is the only reason brands actually exist is to give a customer a way to relate to a product, right? Otherwise, I just have like a shoe. And so Nike comes in and they make people feel like they can run a little faster and they can be, you know, that same badass as, you know, all these other people they see, you know, they can do it too. And that's what the brand does, right? And so then we put that personally, and we have to realize that it's, you know, Nike is is knows that the consumer doesn't actually care about the shoe. You can read the little specs for all the technology that that they use to get the air cushion or whatever, right? You can go find that, but they're not putting it on their top line because they know that you just want to be able to feel like more of an athlete or feel like you can exercise too. And so they're taking that top line appeal. And it's it's not about Nike, it's about you. And so, same thing personally, I tell my students, I'm like, don't even think about this as something that you are doing for yourself. Picture a human in front of you right now and picture something that you know that you do maybe a little differently or that you're just really, really good at, and that maybe that person might need a little help getting better at it, right? What would you say to them about this? Forget all your awards and honors, forget all of these accolades. That's the product. But I want you to talk about your offer, right? That's marketing 101. And, you know, just because we put this word personal in front of branding doesn't mean like I talk about political marketing, right? Politicians are always saying what they're going to make sure you don't lose or what they're gonna help you gain, right? Um, so you put the word personal in front of it, and we accidentally think that it's about our product when it's about the same thing. So that's number one. And number two, the noise, right? It takes someone 20 times of seeing you to even know you exist. We know that in corporate branding. So we talk about frequency, right? And we say, like, someone can see your uh brand three times a day and still not get fatigued, right? That's a frequency score of 21. We each day we take our frequency score and we multiply it by the days of the week, right? And so it's like, you know, we say go to 21 and don't even worry about it. And then kind of start thinking about, you know, audience fatigue when you get to 28.

SPEAKER_03 13:14

But, you know, so reminding us in the world.

SPEAKER_04 13:18

People don't really see you, so they're not seeing everything you think you put out there anyway. And second of all, it doesn't have to be about you, and that's why I called it service first, right? To try and signal the people, this is a little different.

SPEAKER_03 13:50

And I've I you're so right, and I love that idea because a brand is an association with something to another thing, right? Yeah, to a message. So if you're gonna give out your message and you're gonna help people and you're gonna tell them specifically like something that they could do, or or whatever your expertise is that can lead them to the solution, you can associate that with yourself, not necessarily like you were talking about all the products you have or anything like that. You can just be helpful. Like this is how I saw it. You could be helpful and they will associate that helpfulness with you. And that's a brand, that's a personal brand. Yeah. Associating that to you you personally, you know, it's a it's an association to a desired outcome. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:27

Yeah. Um, yes, absolutely. And uh while you're talking, I was I was thinking about like for like the career engineer, you know, you you want to build a perspective um from those around you that that you are associated with a great product or or a great outcome in a project, etc. And you may like, yes, you could do great work, but if you if people don't have that association with you to that great work, then you will not get promoted. You will not you know move up the ranks and and and build influence within the organization. And so so that's why that personal branding is so important. Even if you're fantastic at your job, if no one knows about it, then then you're gonna be a plateau really fast.

SPEAKER_04 15:10

It's absolutely true. And that's that's what makes me sad and kind of mad because have you ever seen two different people and one person just seems so much more distinctive than the other? And then you maybe take a look and you're like, nothing makes this person more special or more knowledgeable. Maybe they're even less knowledgeable, right? But they're getting all the opportunities because they're doing that thing, right? And so it's like, and the people I think that are the most hesitant are the people, like I said, that are like, geez, I know now what I don't know, and so I can't do this. And they immediately disqualify themselves when that's really a signal of like, geez, you probably do have something to say if you're worried about all the things that you know you might not know. That means you're a scrupulous person, probably highly knowledgeable, and probably do have different points of view. And then the other thing is, I always say to people, stop applying. You know, whenever we step out into the world, we apply. And we do this as but like in in professions like engineering, you're always you're victims sometimes of your profession. I tell, like, I have so many engineering students that they want to pivot into management, right? And and there's a lot. And so differentiation is so important, right? And um, I always say the minute you step out, you're trying to talk to me like that same person that wants whatever you want. And you're trying to say, here's all my skills, you know, um, here's all of the things that, you know, I'm hoping to offer to you and get even better at. Oh, and I do have one hobby, let me quickly mention that to you, right? So that I can be a little more human and then we'll kind of, you know, move on. But when you do that, you are like, it's like what AI does to people. You're sounding like everyone else. And so when we step out, the thing that we have to purposefully do is not sound like we're in that box. And so it's as simple as taking even like the mental exercise of the sky is blue. This is common knowledge we don't question. Every industry has common knowledge we don't question. That's the cool part of where it's like, well, can you question it? Because if I were to say, like, well, why do we like stargazing at night so much if the sky's blue? It looks black to me. So there must be more to the sky, right? Maybe the real problem is we're not taking enough time to learn from everything out there, you know, that makes the sky the sky, right? All of a sudden, if I read that online, I'm sending a signal without even telling you I'm smart, without even telling you how many degrees or awards I have, that I know something that might be able to help you enjoy stargazing more, right? Tony Robbins takes it very simply. He says, Knowledge isn't power, knowledge is potential power, action is power, right?

SPEAKER_05 17:49

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 17:50

So none of this is actually born into people. And this is what makes me mad because I think we think there's magic to leadership, to distinction, all of that. No one's born that way, right? We all are born having to learn to walk, talk, and be distinctive and lead, all the things. Um, and so, you know, we just can use frameworks, right? Like one framework I have is like I call it the truth frame ring. And it's like, first, what's the trope in your industry? What does everybody think, right? Next, what's the real problem? The real problem is you're only looking at half the time that the sky's blue. What's your understanding of a better solution? Here's what I want to tell you, right? And then fourth, evidence, right? So this is something that you all listeners of this are very good at, right? They can point to, here's why I know this works, here's the research, here's the outcomes I've seen. And then finally, fifth, how to act. So if we teach someone something, if we say, have you ever considered that action is power? In that same utterance, online and in person, you want to say, next time just try taking one step towards sharing your knowledge and taking some action towards sharing your knowledge in a new platform or somewhere else, right? Whatever it is, right? And then report back. Make it easy so that people can do it and succeed. Then all of a sudden, you've taught someone something new. So you've formed your own expertise, right? Expertise and authority are different. Authorities, your degrees, all that, right? You've formed expertise now because you've given the counterintuition and you've earned trust. And then trust is that thing, right? Marketing, we say no, like trust. You have to know something to like something, like something to trust something. When people trust you, they buy from you, they follow you, they recommend and refer you. That is how we get growth. It's not about the growth hacks. We scale with trust, right? But that's the misunderstood part of marketing too, you know.

SPEAKER_03 19:32

That's I'm just laughing to myself because I just came to that realization. Like, right, as so you taught me something highly valuable today. Like, I'm gonna use this. No, seriously, I didn't I have never framed it that way.

SPEAKER_04 19:45

Um, sorry, go ahead.

SPEAKER_03 19:49

No, I was gonna say, like, you're free, like I'll say what I what how I was thinking about it, and maybe you can give me your thoughts. But it's like you take something that everybody's generally aware of and and that you're an expert in. You're not gonna go just say the same stuff to try and improve your expertise that no one can take action on. Then you're gonna make sure that when you do say to take some action, that it works out for them and that it actually earns trust in you because they just did what you said and it actually worked. And so now their association with your personal brand is that this person gives us things to do that actually pays off. So instead of just like speaking out and trying to establish yourself as an expert, you're just like, hey, do this one thing, tell me how it went, and but behind the scenes you know that if they do it, it's gonna work, or has a very high, high likelihood that it would work. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:47

And so I like to add those. I like to add a little thing on top of that is is being enthusiastic about it, like super excited, and then almost like asking a question, be like, hey, I just did this one thing. Have you tried this before? I was like amazed by what I found out, and then like being really excited about it and and like listing all the details that that you've learned recently about this thing will get them more excited and invested, and they'll actually pay more attention to it than just be like, oh yeah, yeah, I already knew that, that kind of thing. You know, I I think there's a lot more like trust building there because you're sharing that enthusiasm with them.

SPEAKER_04 21:22

Yes, so so many great things. I like Jake, absolutely, you know, that reframe is what I want people to know and understand so much because in addition to being able to then think about things a little differently, the realization that this might be kind of wildly simple. We think about these hacks and you know, growth hacks, we call them a lot, right? And um, if you can do this in another way to get the memorability and and and do the kind of message hack, right? Or just the way that we all should serve people, then all of a sudden you don't need all that stuff, right? It's kind of like when you're trying to find your spouse or a good new friend, right? We're all looking to that person to see like how can they enhance our lives, right? And um and you know, how can we enhance theirs? I'm not trying to sound too selfish, but the point is we are. At the end of the day, we are all selfish consumers, not even in a bad way, but we are people with problems. And so So then, Steve, to what you said, showing a little bit of like, hey, I just learned this, you know, being accessible. We all think we have to be perfect from the outset, right? And, you know, we do have research that shows that bloopers convert 20% more, meaning like if I have spinach in my teeth right now, you like me more because that's a signal that I'm human. On the flip side, we might point to ads and we might say, which image do you like better? Our intent is always gonna be we're gonna point to the more perfect thing, right? Because we're all aspirational. But when we behave, we always linger longer on the content that signals that vulnerability or that that instead of vulnerability, because some people are like, oh, vulnerability is not me. I'm not even gonna try it. And fine. I don't love overusing that word.

SPEAKER_05 23:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 23:06

But signal your own accessibility as a human, right? Um, and then all of a sudden, people feel like I can do it too, you know, because again, we no one is perfect. Some people act like that, and we really don't like hanging out with them anyway. But relate to those people who are authentic.

SPEAKER_03 23:25

Just watch Big Bang Theory and and you know, follow Shelvin around. It's like, dude, this is intolerable. Um, when you said vulnerability, I I like tea I like humility better. I I know they're probably not synonyms, but um I think it that's that's the word I use. It's just like be a little more humble, you know, with your presentation, and and that will lead, I think, to being a little more open too. It's like you don't have to always be the expert and have no flaws, and there's no holes in your argument, and there's no holes in anything you're saying, you know. Or else I wouldn't even do this show. Because I say stupid stuff all the time. I'm just trying to make trying to get to the point that I was trying to make, you know? Uh and if I just like judge that all the time, continuously, that that would shut me down pretty quick.

SPEAKER_05 24:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:18

So just just like, yeah, we're here to share Vanessa's expertise, right? And it's like we're and and make a few good points that people can walk away with. That's like that's why we're here, you know. And I think that's good personal branding.

SPEAKER_02 24:31

I know I know a lot of engineers will will kind of view this as um like bragging or you know, talking about themselves as as uh you know, like, oh, I'm so great and all this other stuff. So how can an engineer like change their their verbiage or their body language or whatever it takes to speak um for themselves, but without sounding inauthentic, uh like they're trying to promote themselves in social media or you know, yes some be some sort of online personality?

SPEAKER_04 25:01

Yeah. Well, I always like to, so a format I like to use is think of a post, a good thought leadership post. And I always encourage people to do this once a week. And then I have this whole system where once you've done a post like this once a week, you can there's all these layers you can add to kind of complete your online ecosystem. But first the post that helps them think about it in a non-braggy way, because there's no bragging in this, is it starts with a story lead-in, like a two-sentence lead-in of, you know, um, I'll never forget the time when, or something like that. And it can be about you or about a client or a customer outcome, just a story that touched you and made you feel like you need to teach something. And then the segue is part two. The segue I call it the wait what moment. So it's like, I never thought personal branding was important until I, until a client asked me if I even loved my son, my newborn son. Why am I telling you this? Because millennials and above were not raised with the internet, and we have trouble bringing in the relatable side of branding. So today I'm gonna teach you three things, and I'm gonna call it wow. And these three steps are going to teach you how to bring in a tiny bit of personal to your content without feeling like you're bragging, right? And so now you flesh out those steps that symbolize WOW, and you're like, why did your client ask you if you liked your newborn son, right? Like it's a signal, like, geez, this is something we need to read. This is something we also struggle with. And then I'm gonna be maybe a little bit counterintuitive in what I teach, right? I'm not gonna sound like all the other content creators out there that say, for your personal brand, you need to be out front with all these achievements. I'm gonna say, that's your window sticker, that's in your bio. Picture that human to start with. So the message is about them, not about you. Automatically you shift it and then move on, right? So again, like um that's kind of what signals it. And then at the end, you can even be cute. Like, and by the way, you know, when he said that, of course I told him all about my son, that I love my son. And I realized in that moment that hiding the most human part of myself was not where the industry was going with the internet, right? Not where the workplace was going anymore, you know, despite how we were taught. So all of a sudden you're relatable, you're all this stuff, and people then are gonna go look at all the other accomplishments. They're gonna go seek out who you are. It's like we do when we're gonna go buy a car. We know we want the car because it signals that we've like made enough money to get it or that we're gonna keep our family safe or save the environment, right? We know why we're getting the car, we already kind of know we're getting the car, and then we like peel back the tape and unfold all the squares on the window sticker and make sure it is credible, right? But we already know based on that top line connection, the offer, not the product.

SPEAKER_02 27:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 27:46

So I mean, if you do that kind of a post once a week, and then if you have the courage just to say, like, you know, um, take your phone and you, you know, put it video and selfie mode, and you know, hi, I'm Vanessa, and today I want to teach you something I really struggled learning because I don't want any client ever to think that, you know, I didn't like my newborn son again, right? Whatever it is, a short video lead in. Now I have this imperfect video on my phone that's authentic and can convert better. And I did it under my chin. So, you know, now I have like 29 chins, right? And but I'll put it up, just put it up, right? Because people will linger faster. And now all of a sudden I have the video to go with the caption. So the internet loves that, you know, LinkedIn algorithms, any algorithm loves that, and all of a sudden you're done for the week, you know?

SPEAKER_02 28:37

Yeah. And and does it always have to be personal, or can it be like uh like an adjacent experience? Like, you know, I heard this incredible story from from a client of mine, or uh, you know, etc. etc. that that so you're you're you're not necessarily pulling in your own personal story like every single time, but you're you're pulling in other experiences from others to really like leverage your point.

SPEAKER_04 29:02

Yes, and that's a great place to start if you don't feel like you want to start personal. There's this one student of mine that his I got goosebumps because when he told me this, I'm like, okay, you get it. You get the story lead-in. So he said that he volunteers, he's an engineer, and um he is trying to, you know, move up in management, all that stuff. And he said in India growing up, he would volunteer for this girls' school, right? In the in the um rural area for to help give girls an opportunity that they don't have in that area, right? And he said that there was this one girl that he knew right away, like if there was one person who should like become a doctor, you know, go to whatever country or whatever area she wanted, all the things, right? He thought the world was her oyster because she was so smart. And so he went around the room and his job was to ask and take notes on like what their goals were. What do they want to be when they grow up? What is the outcome of this school for them? And she had these bright eyes and said, I want to be a tailor. And being a tailor was the top thing you could do in the village because then you run a business and you tailor clothes for a lot of people, and so you make money. And if you can be a tailor, like you're gonna have a really good life. And he said, That's when I realized that if I move to management, I am going to pay such close attention to the differences we have and how we're raised and where we're born, all those things, right? I'm like, I want to hire you, you know, and he's not talking about himself there, right? He's talking about an outcome, and you can do this with other people, other clients.

SPEAKER_03 30:38

Yeah, that's so good. Well, first, like, listen to the last five minutes over again because I don't know. We are we're in the presence of someone who knows this shit. Like, this is good stuff here.

SPEAKER_04 30:49

Uh, and and then my last- And I still, every time I go to share it with you, I still doubt myself a little. I still am like, gosh, I'm so nervous to make the I do all the things too. I want to make that very clear. Yeah, you know, because I don't think this ever goes away.

SPEAKER_03 31:03

You know, before I jumped on the call, I was I would I get a little nervous every single time, even though I've done hundreds of episodes. But then it goes away, right? As soon as you get into it. But I don't know, you're hitting the the my right the right vibe here for me, and I think probably for the people listening too, because that's like very it's practical, it's engine, it's hitting my engineering brain side. It's like if if you don't feel comfortable with making it all about you and sharing a personal story, then you can you can dare I say, even share a personal story, but in the frame of, hey, somebody asked me about this, and you know, and then you you you can say that you gave advice to somebody or that somebody gave advice to you, or that you were converse, you know, you had a conversation with somebody and this came up all the while. It's a personal thing that you went through that you really want to share. It's very valuable, you want it to be visible, you you think it will help people, but you don't want to come from the place of like, let me tell you all about it and how I did it, then you can just as easily just make it about somebody else, or that you that some or or that somebody else gave you that same advice. Yes, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_04 32:09

Like yes, and and again, like you said, it's based in that value, it's based in that here's here's why I'm telling you this. Here's what I want to share with you to make it easier for you. And actually, when I first wrote my book, I was I called it visible and valuable, and I I still actually like that title better. But the reason I switched it is because the value is what gains the visibility with that method, right? Like it's it's opposite of visibility first, you know. Um, it it's the natural follow, you know.

SPEAKER_03 32:39

Yeah, I really like the way the title is now because it's like when I read it, I'm like, go do something valuable or create a great experience, or do do something where you do an awesome thing, and then it's gonna be a lot easier to make it visible once you have all the ammo and you've done it, and it's just it's there.

SPEAKER_02 32:59

You know, so this all really ties well into a question that I've been wanting to ask. And because we service that zero to five year engineer primarily is you know, what do we tell an early career engineer who believes they have not accomplished uh enough yet to give enough worth either teaching or sharing or or advocating for? Like, like how how can they um pull from what they do have, even though it's very limited, to be visible?

SPEAKER_04 33:28

Yes, that is such a good question. And I think that this is another place where this is your advantage because when you signal to someone that you're about to say something that is going to make them learn, people have to understand the thing, right? So when I say the sky's not actually blue, you know, people are like, oh, I always thought that, and they get it right away and they see the signal or hear the signal or read the signal, whatever they're doing. And so that's compared to if I'm a rocket scientist and I'm talking about like this part isn't actually this, and like it might take me a hot minute if I'm more junior to realize why this part, why people even assumed it was like it was in the beginning, right? I I don't even know the common trope of the more advanced stuff a lot. And so I always say Coca-Cola started as a tonic, Disney started as a mouse and an idea, but they marketed where they were. And so the the this person needs to do the same thing. They need to take what they know, and the simpler the better, because again, we can understand those signals. And so the person that's gonna promote you, they they're not gonna be your primary audience most often, right? Like, you know, UC Davis, they say, I want you to come teach, but what did they see me doing online? They saw me teaching people how to market themselves in a different way, um, or and companies how to market themselves in a different way, right? That's what they saw on the internet. They saw me talking to my primary audience. So worry about the people that are that you need to help that are, you know, coming up behind you. And then the secondary audience comes through. You don't want to try and um brand yourself up to the next thing because that's another thing. Hiring managers, like, you know, when you hire someone, you don't hire someone that's eager to learn. You hire someone that can do the job, maybe even better than you can in some in this little area, right? And and you don't necessarily hire people to train them, right? That's why we have the resume so that we know that they have the skills they need. Yeah. And so it actually punishes you to go too far. And, you know, so you really want to niche into the audience that you want to help. And please don't shy away from the basic idea. So I have a student who, a former student who's an optometrist, and she came into the MBA program because she's like, I've been seeing patients day in, day out, back to back for a really long time. What else is out there for me? And so she was really into figuring out what her personal brand was, right? Her name's Dr. Lisa Hornick. Um, and I asked her, like, well, what are you really passionate about? And she said, dry eye disease. And like the class is just like, well, we have eye drops for that, right? By zines right on the shelf. It's a solved problem. But she started saying all these things, like, well, actually, you know, they say eyes are the window to the soul. It's also the window to our physical health. This could signal the start of diabetes, it could signal some kind of cancer, it could signal autoimmune disorders, it could signal too frequent Botox, too much screen time. There's so many underlying things that, you know, um dry eye disease is caused by, but we treat the symptoms. And so then you have this malfunctioning oil gland, and you just keep putting water on it, and it's learning how to malfunction more. And I'm like, well, okay, Lisa, you know, tell me more, right? And so then instead of saying like we haven't solved the dry eye problem yet, Lisa starts saying things like, Would you treat diabetes with an eye drop? And she makes over half of her income now with speaking engagements. And she gets to travel, her goal was like she wanted to start traveling internationally. Now she is, you know, because she just cared to do something different. But her first question to me was, is this too boring? Is this too simple? And now so many people, she's a dry eye whisperer of when you like can't drive anymore because you it's so blurry, right? You come to Lisa, right? It's like imagine if she had stepped back because she was afraid it was too simple, you know, and the people that she would not have touched.

SPEAKER_02 37:17

Yeah, and and though and those kind of stories will connect with the right people, right? Because me just hearing that, like, I'm pre-diabetic. And so I hear that and I'm just like, oh, that's super interesting. I'm gonna go look into it, right? And so, like, just a simple story like that is is so impactful to the right people, and then the the people that you don't need to serve will be like, oh, okay, that's cool, and then they'll move on. And so the the audience that you do gain is important to your mission, right?

SPEAKER_04 37:46

Which which is also actually such a good thing. And I love how you talked about the people you don't want to serve because I think we think how many, let's serve as many people as possible. But actually, if you have an audience of 10, right, and you want to try to reach more of them and you know you've already reached two, and you go two divided by 10, like that's your first KPI that you want to beat, right? Now let's say you you're gonna say, well, now I want an audience of a million and I've already served two. That's a hard KPI to reach. You you are gonna try to do so many different scattered things to improve that ratio, and all of a sudden you're gonna be off track. You're gonna be, you know, I always say, hold up a piece of paper and have someone hold it, try to break it with your hand. The strongest person is still gonna push the paper out of your hand. But if you if you take your finger and try to break it, it doesn't matter how strong you are, you will always break the paper. And so again, you know, but in math terms, the way that, you know, I think a lot of us learn and understand things, you want that ratio that you actually have a chance at improving. And no one wants to try to improve a like, you know, point oh oh oh oh oh oh oh whatever ratio to get it to you know one percent.

SPEAKER_03 38:57

That's hard. Diminishing returns. Yeah, that's that's a really good point to make because then even the two of the ten can go away. You could drop those people because you're trying to chase the other people, and then it's like even if you get a big audience and you have a million impressions and it's like wow, what is it doing? Like you gotta look at what is the effect. Are you are you uh like in business terms? Are you you you you sell a hundred people this month and it's like great, a hundred new customers, amazing. And then you go focus somewhere else, but you lose them all the second month. So then you have to go sell another hundred, and it's like, oh, I've had 200 customers, but now they're all gone, and then you have to go sell another hundred. Like, you should probably want to keep the hundred that you made. Yes, you could sell another hundred, but keep the hundred. Then you have, you know, it's like you don't want to just be dropping it out of the bucket, like, oh, I got a leaky bucket, you know, as far as your message.

SPEAKER_04 39:46

It's another one of those simple marketing 101 things that I think we forget as the internet becomes more complex. I actually had students challenge me on this too. I forgot if I told you the first time we spoke, but I'll tell you again it at risk of boring you because for others to hear. Um, so I had a student say, You keep saying virality doesn't matter, but you have this formula and you know how someone can go viral. So why don't you go viral? And I'm like, you know what? I'm gonna take you up on this challenge actually, and I'm gonna show you. So watch my Instagram over spring break. And so this was this past spring break, and um, it lined up with my kids' spring break. So the whole family we went back to New York because I had to go see my publisher and all this stuff, and we're like, we're gonna turn this into a family trip. And so um, there was a trend going on on TikTok and Instagram at the time, and it was this trend like my spouse does not know the difference between an airport and being chased by a bear, which my husband does not know. His nervous system cannot tell. And so we get up too early and we're rushed, and it's all the things, right? And you know, he's very on edge if you know anything goes wrong or someone talks back or anything like that. It's very, it's quite funny. And so I kept taking these little clips and he has like, you know, the special TSA clear or whatever. And I've never put in the time to do that because I'm like, I'm just gonna stand in the, you know, common line and you know, I know it's all gonna be fine. And he like, he forgets to take off his belt because he's helping the kids because they can come through with him, right? So I'm going through my little normal line and he's getting buzzed by the metal detector. And so I take these angry clips of him like trying to put his belt back on and all flustered as I'm standing there done. And I keep doing this throughout the moment, morning, which that's a few hours of time, right? To have my camera ready and all that. And it certainly wasn't like this enjoyable airport, like I'm reading a book or something. Wait, right. And then at the very end, I zoomed in on the bookstore and I'm like, by the way, my book's coming out May 5th, right at the end of the video, right? And then it took another three and a half hours with all the voiceovers, all the cuts to make this like one minute video that everyone's gonna laugh at, right? Yeah, and it got 50k views in a day. And so then I but the engagement ratio, which is taking any comment, follow, like, share, any of that, dividing it by how many views something gets was like 0.004%, right? And I know I've been right, but then like usually a post where I'm teaching people about marketing that might get, you know, 500 to a thousand views and and then you know, a higher engagement rate of four to 10%, sometimes more, that might sell a couple books, you know. And so, but that's where the influencer is, right? Because if I'm gonna be an influencer based on like couples humor, I have to do that every day. And so the three and a half hours I took doing that video and editing it, if I do a couple of those a day, there's my full-time job. Yep. And then in the videos, I can start repping a few products. But that's that's the difference, you know.

SPEAKER_03 42:38

Yeah, but then it's like, I don't know, I followed marketing people for a while, and there's and there's one person that I see more often than not because I like their stuff. But it's like the the businesswoman with the thousand followers on Instagram makes two million dollars a year, top line. Yes. And the businesswoman with a million followers on Instagram, but then but that just used entertainment to get to that million makes like 250k top line.

SPEAKER_04 43:04

And they don't know what's because that person, too, that has a thousand followers, they're doing other things. And so as you do these weekly thought leadership posts, I tell students, do that for a couple months. Now you have these eight blog entries. And blogs are not like I know people don't go consume blogs on websites anymore. Duh, we all know that. But if you make a website, your firstandlastname.com, that gives you some filler content to use. You've already got all these concepts, all this work you've done. We now have tools that even help us write. And if you already have these blog posts, you're feeding it with your own ideas, right? Because you've already used like the truth framework and things like that to be original and counterintuitive. So you're not that sea of slop, sea of sameness. So now start putting it on a website and on that website, um, put a way to opt into a newsletter, right? And so that person with the thousand followers on Instagram, if they're if they have a newsletter that they're reminding people to opt into and stuff, they may have 10,000 people on their newsletter, which is where you want it. Because that's where the more intimate relationship happens. And that's what corporations know too. They're constantly funneling people to their own CRM system, right? And that's because it's like goes back to marketing 101. What are we like as humans? And if I walk by your computer. And you think you've left your Instagram feed open, you're like, okay, well, she knows I'm into this and that, you know, fine. She didn't see anything crazy. But if you've left your email open and I walk by your computer, or if you leave your texts open and I walk by, you're like, man, what did she see? You know? And so we feel when we have someone that we're relating to in our inbox or on our phones, you know, and we're collecting that data and communicating with people in that way. Um, we feel closer to that person anyway. And that's where, like you said, that person's now making their millions versus their, you know, 250k.

SPEAKER_03 44:53

Yep. Trust. And it's it's true, it's trust, and then it's also relevance too. It's like the virality just gets to people that want to be entertained and then they move on to what they actually care about. They just wanted a laugh or a dopamine hit, you know. So it's like it's that too. Um, by the way, building the systems right now to have my own newsletter and and a CRM system that actually identifies clients and what they care about, and I can give them my message and all that. So that's exciting. Uh not quite there yet. Still got to do too much work. I was I was gonna ask, uh, unless you got a uh follow-up question, Steve, but so you know, we didn't get the book in time to read everything. We've been talking about obviously content of the book, but if there's anything in the book that you know you wanted to hit, and it's like, oh yeah, we should really talk about this one section. Is there something like that? And did you want to share it?

SPEAKER_04 45:50

So, you know, the book, I wrote it to be um almost like embarrassingly easy to to implement because I want more people to implement this kind of stuff. So um it's in four parts and it breaks down um, you know, that first thought leadership post. And then you see in each section, like how do you package yourself in your website, and then here's each step of exactly what to say on your website. Um, and so it goes step by step so that by the time you're done, and it ends in should you want to consult or monetize, you know, here's how to do it. So basically the first little part, the introduction and chapter one is reframing personal branding in the way we've done. And then it really is step by step, how do you do this? You know. Um so if you want to start with just that LinkedIn post once a week and then build, um, I guess the one thing I would say is that then is chapter eight and nine to start with that one, that one funnel, that one LinkedIn post, and then go back and read from the beginning. But um, from the beginning, if you do it in order, you know, by the time you're done, you get um, you've built your brand. And at the end of each chapter, because I know we're busy, so busy, busy professionals, I give you how much time it takes. And and my goal for for each step. And so you can kind of plan it out as you go. If you look at that last page, the last box in each chapter. And my goal for everyone is that once they get it up and running, they're spending one to three hours a week, and that's it on their personal brand online. And it makes you then better in person too. If you start finding all these counterintuitive things based on these frameworks that I'm gonna teach you, because again, we all have to be potty trained, walk and talk when we're little. We all have to learn these things, right? So you're gonna learn how to be counterintuitive, even if you think you're the most vanilla person in the room. We're turning you into Rocky Road. Don't even worry about it. Yeah, you follow all those things, right? And I want you to eventually, you know, do it in a short amount of time, but then you start sounding more Rocky Road in real life too, which is kind of a cool side effect that I love.

SPEAKER_02 47:43

Yeah, that was actually my follow-up question originally before before Jake asked his was, you know, we have been talking mostly about online uh thought leadership and and how to be compelling online, but how how does this help people um you know be more compelling in person with like meetings and interviews, presentations, and and you know, just general conversations with other leaders?

SPEAKER_04 48:07

Yeah, I mean, the smartest person in the room is that person. Like whenever you ask a question or make a statement that goes, and here's the thing that I think we're missing in all of this. And if we could pull this in too, how would that change? Like in step two, if we did this a little different than we do it, and then most people do it, like, haven't you noticed how step four is smoother? Like these little tiny granular things where you can say, like, ooh, here's something very simple where I can go, what does everybody think right now? What's the real problem? What's my better solution? Right? Those three things you run through it quickly in your head as you're in a conversation, and then all of a sudden you're helping. And then it's not an elevator pitch, like, gosh, elevator pitches are creepy, right? I'm standing in there trying to tell you everything about myself and the person's hitting door open. But when you like have a conversation and can all of a sudden say, like, ooh, what value add can I do by finding that thing they might not be thinking about, then it's like, wait, who are you? Who are you? You know, let me get your name, right? Um, and so yes, I do think it makes you more distinctive in real life. And I think it's important because if you don't tell people who you are, and forming a personal brand forces you to theme yourself, right? If you don't tell people who you are, the internet's gonna try to find it. And I always say, like, poor John Turnus is the guy that like learned this maybe the hard way. I don't know, John Turnis, but um I did. Did you guys see in the New York Times in April when they were talking about Tim Cook's retiring from Apple? And John Turnus is the next favorite guy. And there was this one sentence and it said, John Turnus, now Apple needs to decide if they want another deft manager or an innovator. And I thought that should be and because deft managers are great. I mean, Tim Cook, like they keep the ship running, they keep the profits going, all of that. But you know, John Turnus, the art, the same article, also explained that John Turnus was the guy that either has these three, you know, dots for your camera or the one. And that one dot became the kid's phone, right? And so he tiered the iPhone by an engineering innovation into a product suite. To me, that's innovative because the iPhone had never had a product suite before. But no one ever told him to talk about it that way, you know, and so all of a sudden the New York Times decided he's boring and it says or instead of and. But he could have decided that for them, you know, and so that's where I'm just like, you everyone deserves this, you know, if you don't speak up for yourself. Other people, those selfish people we talked about earlier, that we all have an inclination to be, they're not gonna speak up for you, you know.

SPEAKER_03 50:34

Yep. That that I've never considered that before. I was just thinking, still, still, you're gonna get shade thrown on you. Like, like you can do all you could do the branding, you could do, you could be out there. I know people that are very visible, and then it's like someone who's seen one snip uh makes their entire judgment of this person's entire life and who they are. And I'm just like, hmm.

SPEAKER_04 50:57

I know, and I feel so bad for that person who is so unhappy, right? And that's like what we tell our kids, right? But one thing that's helpful in this area that I do have in the book is we do have research. Everybody thinks what's the strategy of if I get a bad comment, do I respond back? Do I delete it? What do I do? We have research that shows that if you delete that comment, um, unless this is unless it's customer service for a product, which is like a little bit beyond like the personal that we're talking about. That's different.

SPEAKER_05 51:25

Right.

SPEAKER_04 51:26

Um but for your personal brand, if someone is throwing that shade, right, you can delete it and it won't make a difference. It will not punish you to delete those comments. So you can, I mean, you can just let it go and delete it if that makes you feel better. And I I honestly think that's a better strategy anyway, just to like not have to deal with the emotional fallout.

SPEAKER_02 51:48

You're dealing with enough in, you know, than to respond to every single thing.

SPEAKER_04 51:52

Yeah, people like that, they're not gonna stop. That's why they're doing it, you know. The research also shows that too, is that cascade, you know. So if you are not gonna delete it, you really need to comment in a way that shuts down the conversation, you know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:05

So if if you're a new engineer and you are applying for a job and your only opportunity to make an impression is your resume and cover letter, and that is it. How can how can someone leverage some of these um concepts in their resume and cover letter to at least stand out enough to get that first conversation?

SPEAKER_04 52:31

Yes. Okay, so the first thing is AI algorithm. Um we wanna we wanna make the signal that we know everything that we need to know to get the job, but then we do something differently. So back to those, if I do step two a little differently, step four smoother, right? You're writing your resume, and then where can you find in each piece of experience a way to put like, you know, achieved such and such, but took common, you know, whatever the approach is and added this, right? You do that enough, and AI is like, okay, they know everything there is to know, so I'm gonna put them in the qualified pile, but now I have to flag this because I don't understand these other things they said. I can't put it into my um pattern boxes that the algorithm wants me to put it in because AI is no longer about keywords primarily, it's about finding buckets of patterns. And so you have to break the buckets of pattern, but you have to show the parity, right? That you know the buckets so that AI can see you as credible. So that's the resume. And then the cover letter is your opportunity not to repeat your resume, but again, to talk about that story lead-in of whatever it is that showed you that your life's purpose, your career purpose is to help because you saw something in a different way. Here is that wait, what thing I saw differently. And these are the things when I repeat these things that really changes the outcome for organizations. And if I spent the rest of my career doing this, I'd be so satisfied because I see this tiny little thing, this tiny little, you know, entry-level thing, whatever it is, that you know, you've discovered that you can help on, you know. Um, if the cover letter is the emotional connection, if the cover letter is the offer, and then the resume is the product, also so that AI algorithm can be broken. Yeah, now you have it all working for you, you know.

SPEAKER_03 54:15

Yeah, I like that. I would say do a cover letter even if they say it's not necessary. If they say don't you submit a cover letter, I mean follow the rules, but uh yeah. You could break the rules too. But what what if your cover letter said something like, Yeah, you see, you know that resume you just read? Here's how we're gonna make it happen, right? Here's how we're gonna execute on this. You think anyone has ever said that? You know that cute little resume you saw? This is how we put it into action, and then you just talk about it. This is how I usually do it, this is where I break the mold. Yeah. Could make you stand up, you know.

SPEAKER_04 54:45

And you know what? That wording you just used, just that clear, like human wording, that is just like that's you know, when we see marketing language, we see that, right? And that's what I mean by stop applying. Like you say that, and I'm like, geez, I want the get shit done, guy. You know, like because we're the humans in the end reading it, you know. So it's like at a certain point, once you have your product all like around your bio and your resumes polished, all that, then you got to be the human at a certain point and you know, stop applying because that's all we have left, really, as these machines get smarter is critical thinking, the ability to relate to each other, and our own personal style, right? In chapter five, I call that the eight E IOUs of personal branding. And I have like literally, this is why I said I embarrassingly did it so that like it could be step by step, because I know we're all busy. And so it's like, here's the five things you can layer on in a way that doesn't intimidate you to do so, so that you sound like a human and not someone constantly applying to a job.

SPEAKER_03 55:45

And it's gonna reach the most people. Like if you wrote it at a PhD level and only for them, I mean, you're just like kind of excluding a lot of people that would have to take like another eight hours and reread your book and reread it and reread it and go, okay, now I finally get it. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_04 56:00

I know you're the person who's I would have to read it and be like, hanging out with what are all these words?

SPEAKER_03 56:04

Like, what I'm like have to look it up every time, you know, put it in AI. What is actually being said here? Oh, that's a fancy word for just do the freaking thing. Oh god, okay. You know, it's like, yeah. So I I like I like the simple, you know, books that are written in a simple manner that you can understand and just like work through it.

SPEAKER_04 56:22

So which is also hard because I also had to put aside like, if I don't use this buzzword, will people think I'm actually smart and qualified, right? Like we I just I don't think the bad news in all of this is I don't think these thoughts and feelings are ever gonna go away. But one thing I do say is like that really should be your signal because we grew up with the Oregon Trail and I killed so many damn oxen because I just wanted to get there. And so I would make all these changes at once, you know, kind of like that big target audience we talked about. That's how I was, right? And you know, and then my sister would make like one change at once, right? And she'd always get there, and I'd be like, damn you, my oxen are all dead. I'm so excited to get there, right? But when you're a pioneer, like you do risk killing oxen. And like a pioneer is like when you're making a common idea new, like when you're saying dry eye disease is not solved and you're trying to convince a bunch of people that like you're right, that is scary. And so what if we don't feel like an imposter, something's actually a little bit wrong with us. And so I do think like this constant questioning, we need to flip that more as like, yeah, that means we do know something, you know. Um, because I don't think I think there's so many like advice or coaching out there that um is about how do we get past this. And I'm just like, I don't know if it's possible. I think we should just give up on that and just say, you know what? Suck it up. We know that this means we should say this and say it, and then delete the, you know, the trolls.

SPEAKER_03 57:47

I am the biggest fan of what you just said.

SPEAKER_04 57:49

Like yeah.

SPEAKER_03 57:50

What was it? What's uh it's like f your mood, follow the plan. That's it. Like I know, I know the feelings show up and you go, Oh, it's cute, see you later, and you just keep working. Yep, no matter what.

SPEAKER_04 58:00

Yeah, there's the shortcut right there. If you cannot let go, right? If you can never let go of imposter syndrome or all the things, like most of us, we everybody likes being able to say they're the perfect person who can let it go. No one can really let it go, right? Um, right? So I'm just like, I don't know, why spend all that time trying to? There's the shortcut, there's your hack. Don't try to let it go, just do it anyway.

SPEAKER_03 58:21

Figure out how to deal with it. Like, right. I don't know. I'll I'll go destroy something and then I feel better. Okay, great. Exactly. If you didn't hurt anybody or do anything morally or ethically like wrong, then you're good.

SPEAKER_02 58:32

Yes. Yeah. I always say that that imposter syndrome is just a signal that you're in in the right place, right? Because you always want to be in a state of mind of like continuous growth. Like, hey, I need to learn more to be better at what I'm doing, but I'm already in a place that that I've been recognized that I I am good enough to to do this job. So that's why I think imposter syndrome is actually where you want to be. If you don't feel like it, then you're just complacent.

SPEAKER_03 58:57

I've learned to miss the feeling.

SPEAKER_02 58:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 58:59

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 59:00

Exactly. So yeah, this has been an awesome conversation. Um we've discussed a lot uh what comes down to like helping people recognize their own value um and communicate clearly. So both online and in person, which is what I love. Um so we do have a couple of standard questions we'd like to ask all our guests um as we wrap up here. Um and I'll just kick mine off and then I'll let Jake follow up. So, from my perspective, what makes an impactful, or I'm sorry, from your perspective, what makes an impactful engineer?

SPEAKER_04 59:35

I think an impactful engineer is someone who can make me understand that value add that they have, right? And so um I I actually think it's what we just spoke about. It's being able to lean into the difference because you are trained to be the same, right? You have all these different applications and stuff, you have all these boxes you have to check so the bridge doesn't fall down. And so for me, when someone can talk about the value add, that's where um that's where the value really lies. And I've had so many engineers, like I gave an example of one, but I've had so many engineers that that have come through my personal branding class, and the ones that do these well are the ones that again look for the moment where that little different thing they do impacted the human use, you know?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:25

Um and talk about it over and over too. That's another thing. Like, you don't find a different way to say the same thing over and over and over. I talk about that a little bit in my book, but you don't have to invent like a ton of this. You just have to find different ways to keep saying it.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:40

Yeah. And and to layer a little bit on that is is when you find different ways to say it, it'll reach different people and it'll stick for different people, right? Because if you say it the same way, your your audience that is going to get meaning from it is so small. But if you keep saying it in a different way, then that grows your audience as well and the people that you reach.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:00

Yes. And it really does go back to simplicity too, because being able to say the message when people understand the human impact is actually why you went into your profession, right? Make the application better for the humans using it.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:12

Absolutely, yeah. Yeah, and I I see this all the time in what I'm doing. It's like I will get tired of my own message and I and what I'm saying before anybody else does. Like I go to just networking event after networking event. It's like I'm saying the same thing to try and build the brand. And it's like saying it different ways, saying, you know, this, and it's like, man, this is like what I do. This is all I do. It's like people are gonna be tired of hearing about Jake and his damn company.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:37

But it's no, and in the end, they haven't even heard it 20 times yet, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:01:41

I and they haven't heard it 20 times yet, and I'll let them know that this is what we do in a later call, and they're like, Oh, I had no idea. And I'm like, whoa, I mean, I've said it, you know, this many times. But I'll do the same, it's just a human thing, like, because I'll do the same thing to other people. It's like they'll tell me something over and over, and it's like, oh yeah, I got it on the fourth time. But but you know, I still have some questions too. So it just don't, you'll get tired of your stuff before anybody else ever will. So maintaining the message and changing it around is is actually the right thing to do. Yep.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:10

That's another signal, actually. Someone the other day was like, How's your book? And I'm like, I might be a little sick of my book. You know, you can cut this part. This but I mean, they weren't sick of it, they wanted to know how it was going. I'm like, I feel like I talk about this like three times, five times a day, every day, you know. But yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:29

Uh yeah, okay. My question. Uh, because I am that the the doer of things. Um I I yeah, I do first and then I fix it later. Uh, what is the one thing that someone could just take action on right now, as soon as they're done listening, uh, to it to make the first step and prove their personal brand and get things done.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:49

Okay, who do you want to help? And then what is the common thing they're thinking right now? What's the real problem, and what do you do different? Get that message down. That's the baseline of everything you're gonna do. You gotta get that. That's in marketing that eventually goes into what we call the hook, right? The wait what moment that we talked about. So, I mean, prove it to yourself right now. Just think of something different, and then turn around your camera to your face and make tell the camera that.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:16

I'm literally gonna try to do it. I like right now. But I have thought of this stuff a lot, but I'm just gonna put myself out there because I was thinking about a story earlier too. Like this person had no idea that uh how to tell anyone how they were different, and then they landed a job two weeks later, right? That might be like the hook or something, or what I would say. Okay, so you don't have so I'm a person that has no idea how to define what I'm doing or stand out, and I want a job in two weeks, so maybe it hooks somebody, right?

SPEAKER_05 1:03:45

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:46

Where this came from was I was talking at a university, and a graduate a graduating student came up to me after uh they had their bachelor's in maybe mechanical engineering. They're like, I've I've I've had an internship or two, but I've never done anything. What do I tell people besides what everybody else says when they interview? That, oh, I've taken these classes in thermodynamics, and I've uh have a uh my bachelor's in this, and I went to Wentworth, and I went to Okay, great, yeah, we know all that already, right? But he's like, What do I say? And I'm like, What have you done? And he goes, Oh, well, we started talking a little bit, and then we ended on he's done a lot of painting. Like he used to just paint houses on the exterior because he needed to make some money. So I'm like, great, perfect. Let's let's talk about that. How you how do you stand out in an interview? Well, what does it take to paint the exterior of a house? Start telling me about that. And he's like, Oh, it's a pain in the ass sometimes because you've got to think about the weather, you've got to plan it. Uh if it gets, if the weather doesn't uh uh you know cooperate with you that day, you've got to start hanging these different materials, you've got to stir your paint this many more times, you've got to put this activator in it. And if you don't get there on time, you don't do this step first, the paint's gonna drip afterwards. If you don't use the right brush on the right texture, and I'm just like, dude. This is all planning, strategic uh implementation of the tools that you need to use. This you've managed, you know, what size of house have you done? Oh, I've done so many, and they had so many windows, you gotta tape them all perfectly. And it's like, great. So you know how to plan, use the tools that are in front of you, pivot when the weather's not a is a problem, and you still get it done. He's like, Yeah, pretty much. I'm like, cool. Just say all that shit when you're in the interview. And then literally they interviewed and had a job, and he's and they messaged me and they're like, I just did what you said, and I and they were like so impressed. And we didn't talk about engineering. I'm like, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:34

So powerful, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:05:35

So so maybe if I was a well, I mean that's the whole point of the show of the impactful engineer is to like try to get people to think that way. But if I was trying to monetize the impactful engineer, which I'm not going to, uh, or or like be a coach or whatever, that would be one of the things that I talk about like a lot.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:52

And your personal brand is your lab to do that, right? Because you start getting these analytics and you start hearing, like you start hearing from your audience what they like the most of. And it's like, oh, so I'm gonna do like this firewall, this you know, paywalled workshop. This is my first topic. It's so linear, you know, when you do it step by step.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:12

And then when they go, and because there's a high likelihood of success that you're gonna stand out and break through the fabric of commoditization if you do that.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:21

Right. That when they go do it and then 80% of them succeed, then you've got 80% of the people that tried it gonna come back and go, I wonder what's in the workshop. You know, if I was gonna monetize, I wonder, I wonder what else is in the workshop because this worked.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:33

So then the trust is built. Yeah. Yeah. Um okay, there. So you can do the same thing. Just go, go, like, my whole point behind that is like go do stuff, and then you can pull stories from it. You know, you can't do it. No, it's so true.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:48

I said at the beginning this is the brothers podcast that I think needs to be all the rage here.

unknown 1:06:53

Oh good.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:54

All right. Heck yeah. But honestly, like doing just doing the podcast too, just for more inspiration, I guess. Like it, I was not an outgoing sales and marketing person that could start a business from scratch before I started the podcast. Like I didn't, I didn't. I thought it's been ruminating for a while, but after doing so many podcast episodes and having to find people to have on the show and conversing with people and trying to sell the show.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:20

Host regularly and host regularly.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:22

Do the like when I am then in a position or in a room with people that want my services, I can tell them so much easier because it's not I'm not trying to think of it on the spot. It's just kind of built in. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:34

Um that was a long-winded.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:38

No, no, no, no, it's so cool. And and I was about to point out, like, it's almost a little fun because you know, you start realizing that your value's impacting a little people and it gets fun, you know, because look at what you're doing for yeah, that stuff.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:52

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I love when I get messages to be like, oh, I I did what you guys said and and it I got promoted or I got the job, or et cetera, et cetera. And and I get those every once in a while. And it and it's it it is a re-empowers uh you know why we we do this in the first place.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:08

That's it, right? That's like the elixir of life, right? What what else is it?

SPEAKER_02 1:08:12

Yeah, exactly. Um, so be before we wrap this up, uh finally, um please tell us uh where they can get your book uh and where they can follow you online.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:23

Uh where books are sold. So Amazon, Barnes and Nobles, Target, like all those places are, you know, it's listed there. And then on my website, Vanessaaricardi.com, just my name, I have it linked as well, those places. And um, I have value ads because I have to practice what I preach. And so different learning tools and stuff like that also on my website.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:45

Perfect. And and and you're on LinkedIn as well. Um, and then and then just in case yeah, and just in case uh uh people don't catch the title, it is valuable and visible. Um so I'm excited to read the book. I think it gets here today, uh, I believe is what you said. So um pretty pumped about that. And I'll uh I'll I'll hit you back up and and tell you what I think of it all. So I know it's gonna be awesome.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:10

If you don't like it, you can tell me and I'll delete your comment. So cool.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:15

We will make it our personal mission to uh just drag you down with our actually delete that.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:23

Let's call her out and see if she does. Awesome. Um so for our listeners, uh, if you learned something today or think uh someone else needs to hear Vanessa's point of view, and I know there's a lot of value here, please share the show. It's the best way we can grow the podcast and continue to create value and impact for this engineering community. And again, Vanessa, thank you so much for for joining uh in this great conversation. And uh we'll talk to you next time.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:50

Thank you for having me. That was fun.